Is it right to celebrate a death?

[DeletedUser]

If you could please name me good, rather than just throw that out there I would be greatful. *sigh*
And on your logic, the lives that were saved with their deaths don't count for anything?
How about Hitler or Napoleon?

Yes I do Seems everyone is so shocked by that, start a new thread and I will gladly go into more detail.

Despite from Hitler's actions that caused the deaths of millions of people, he did in fact contribute greatly to Germany and the world in more than one way. Do I need to list them for you?

I'm not shocked, moreso just amazed. particularly about the meaning of the words you choose to use. I suggest knowing what words mean before trying to use them in context.

 

[DeletedUser6029]

The good being anything. Simple things, like being a father to their children. Being a good husband, a good son. There are many parts of these people's lives that none of us know about, and it is not for us to judge them, and to deem them a 'monster'. I suspect you have misunderstood my "wrong action, right reasons" quote, from the way you have used it, but oh well.

I never said that lives saved by their deaths don't count for anything, nor did my post in any way imply that, so please do not put words into my mouth. Hitler did what he did for noble reasons - he believed that his actions were for the good of his country, and his people. Many supported him, supported his actions.. I assume you include him as 'a monster', so are you saying that they (his supporters) are wrong, and you are right?

As for Neapolitan, I have either missed a history lesson on that, or you have something against ice cream.

So let me get this straight....He murdered THOUSANDS of people, oppressed millions more, plotted to kill future societies, and you think because he was a dad all is good? Josh Powell was a dad, father doesn't mean dookie. Unless you lost someone in 9/11 I suggest you tread softly on the next comment about judgement. Look, lets be realistic here, a person IS their ideals. I am a religious fundamentalist (with a twist) I can't separate my ideals. Those very things that drive Hellstromm insane ARE who I am. You can't say that these people were any less than their ideals. They were willing to die for them, so they thought they were one and the same as well. You logic is flawed if you think a persons thoughts can be separated from their actions. By saying not to celebrate the end of the horror and bad they did, you are in essence saying that those lives who were spared by their deaths don't count, and the freedoms they gained by their deaths aren't valid.

The kid that shot up the high school did it for perceived noble reasons....does that make them excusable? Should we let him go and say that he is not a killer? Because that is not who he is???

Of course Hitler was a monster. And so were many of the people who participated with him. I do however feel if a tribunal was held and his associates were found not guilty then so be it not guilty...but otherwise, yes his co-leadership were just as large of monsters. I am not right on anything in regards to Hitler, I wasn't even an itch in my dads pants back then, but history does dictate truth to his horrors. (you can add so many more if you want...how about Rwanda? Somalia?)

Despite from Hitler's actions that caused the deaths of millions of people, he did in fact contribute greatly to Germany and the world in more than one way. Do I need to list them for you?

I'm not shocked, moreso just amazed. particularly about the meaning of the words you choose to use. I suggest knowing what words mean before trying to use them in context.

what words do you refer to? I know what premeditated means. So yes, If a person CHOOSES to drink, and kills someone knowing they are getting impaired, well seems to me it was a conscious choice to do so. Therefore, based on the American system, it would not be "manslaughter" it should be Capital murder, premeditated, and punished accordingly.

 

[DeletedUser]

Although risking getting too far off topic - Hitler did do good things, but it doesn't justify the millions he murdered so do not get that confused. Among some of his contributions are:

1) Animal conservation acts and the banning of vivisection,
2) Anti-tobacco laws as well as the link of smoking and lung cancer (further touched upon later) as well as it being forbidden for pregnant women to smoke as well as the banning of advertisements and smoking on public transport, restaurants, etc,
3) A push to have every German citizen with a mode of transport (car) which resulted in Volkswagen,
4) Unification of Germany and bringing it back from a severe depression with huge economic troubles and high unemployment rates including repaying all foreign debts. This also included a very large welfare system with the belief that every person should have the same standard of living,
5) The creation of the modern highway system (Autobahn) which allows people to commute quickly and efficiently, among other infrastructure,
6) Similar to above, he invented a schedule system for rail as well as a standardised unit of measure,
7) The ceremonial lightning of the flame in the Olympics was Hitler's idea, a tradition we still follow to this day,
8) Creation of a kindergarten system, a strong belief in uniform and fashion as well as innovations in film, art and media (I grouped these together because I want to have 10 points),
9) Incredible advances in technology, mainly in the area of jet and rocket propulsions, so much so that their research into it was top secret and classified as 'war decisive' and far ahead beyond every other country which is confirmed by experts and was later used to fly man to the moon (it was so good and advanced that it was essentially unchanged when used in 1969) and
10) Medical findings, albeit at a total disregard for ethics, from many experiments that would otherwise be impossible today for the aforementioned reason; these findings dramatically improved our modern understanding of the human body and anatomy as well as ways to treat them such as the development of Methadone.

Premeditated murder is the act of killing someone when you have thought about it previously such as including, but not limited to, method, timing, likeliness of success, hiding evidence and evading detection. A person's act to drink alcohol is most often premeditated but it is stupid, for lack of a better world, to assume that always results in premeditated murder while driving under the influence.

 

[DeletedUser6029]

Premeditated murder is the act of killing someone when you have thought about it previously such as including, but not limited to, method, timing, likeliness of success, hiding evidence and evading detection. A person's act to drink alcohol is most often premeditated but it is stupid, for lack of a better world, to assume that always results in premeditated murder while driving under the influence.

Asth...I didn't quote because it was big. I am glad you took the time to list the things Hitler did. I am not negating those in any way, I am also aware of them. But despite those things, he was a monster. He cruelly tried to wipe out an entire race of people, no amount of good wipes that crime out.

As to the other, since nobody can claim ignorance to the possible consequences of drinking and driving, the method they use to get there is willful, the timing they take to get drunk, the attempt at hiding it and evading police, etc etc....(I have thick skin, stupid didn't bother me ) I don't always think it results in a death, but I do think that any death as a result of a drunk, well...it is premeditated. They know better. If they put as much thought in getting a safe ride home as they do at taking back streets and sneaking around cops, or trying to drive like they are sober, then there wouldn't be a problem now would there?

 

[DeletedUser]

Spoiler

Scenario - It is time to elect the world leader. Here are the facts about the three leading candidates:


Candidate A
Friends with corrupted politicians, has two mistresses, chain smoker and drinks frequently each day.

Candidate B
Kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, opium user and alcoholic (considerable amount of whisky every night).

Candidate C
Decorated war hero, vegetarian, non-smoker, occasional beer and has had no affairs.

Who would you pick based on these values?

Spoiler

If you knew a woman had three deaf children, two blind children and one mentally disabled child, and she also had syphilis, would you recommend her not to get pregnant again? Or get an abortion for the good of the child and her existing family if she did get pregnant?

I am not negating those in any way, I am also aware of them. But despite those things, he was a monster. He cruelly tried to wipe out an entire race of people, no amount of good wipes that crime out.

"its not the death of the person we should be celebrating, its the death of his idea and his terrorist group" and I don't think you can separate the two.

You did effectively just seperate the two, you acknowledged he did have good actions but his other idealogies of genocide left a sour taste in everyone's mouth, but without some of the Nazi advancements we wouldn't be where we are today or at the very least we would have taken longer to get there. It is a typical 'right reason, wrong action' scenario.

Unless, of course, you're denouncing the fact that we should be taking advantage of the medical knowledge, technology advancements, animal conservation, affordable automotive transport for everyone, an advanced highway system for travel and risks of smoking, simply because a man that was undoubtedly 'evil' contributed to all these? Then your statement might be plausible.

If you could please name me good, rather than just throw that out there I would be greatful.

You said that yet apparently you were aware of all the good Hitler contributed to society?

You're missing the point about premeditated murder and drink driving. It isn't about the fact of whether or not they are aware of the consequences, the matter at hand is that their actions were that of premeditated murderer. It isn't premeditated if his actions are a result of the murder. Yes, he made the decision to drink but no he did not plan to murder another person. Yes, they might 'know better' than to drive when they're under the influence but that doesn't default the result of their actions as premeditated murder.

 

[DeletedUser6029]

Candidate C
Decorated war hero, vegetarian, non-smoker, occasional beer and has had no affairs.

Truthfully though in a real world scenerio, I don't choose my "leader" based off of any of those criteria. I choose issues.

If you knew a woman had three deaf children, two blind children and one mentally disabled child, and she also had syphilis, would you recommend her not to get pregnant again?

I think that if she didn't get her syphilis dealt with, she should be snipped. I am all for snipping against a womans will.
Not sure where your going with these but I am sure you will tell me *wink*

You did effectively just seperate the two, you acknowledged he did have good actions but his other idealogies of genocide left a sour taste in everyone's mouth, but without some of the Nazi advancements we wouldn't be where we are today or at the very least we would have taken longer to get there. It is a typical 'right reason, wrong action' scenario.

The good Hitler did makes no difference to the wrongs he made. Whilst he did good, he was a monster. When he died, celebration was acceptable because no amount of good he did makes up for the wrong. I don't separate the two parts to his person, I accept there were two sides, BUT he was still an evil man. An evil man the world is better off without.

Unless, of course, you're denouncing the fact that we should be taking advantage of the medical knowledge, technology advancements, animal conservation, affordable automotive transport for everyone, an advanced highway system for travel and risks of smoking, simply because a man that was undoubtedly 'evil' contributed to all these? Then your statement might be plausible.

You think these things wouldn't have come about without him? Do all his contributions erase his crimes?

You said that yet apparently you were aware of all the good Hitler contributed to society?

The comment you refer to was specifically towards Bin Ladin in response to someone elses comments. I added Hitler and Napoleon as examples of monsters.

You're missing the point about premeditated murder and drink driving. It isn't about the fact of whether or not they are aware of the consequences, the matter at hand is that their actions were that of premeditated murderer. It isn't premeditated if his actions are a result of the murder. Yes, he made the decision to drink but no he did not plan to murder another person. Yes, they might 'know better' than to drive when they're under the influence but that doesn't default the result of their actions as premeditated murder.

No I am not missing the point. I simply don't agree with you. I T-boned a car at 75 mph, because a drunk driver pulled out in front of me. In my opinion, he knew the risks when he got drunk, and ignored them. As they were cutting me out of the car, he was trying to talk his way out of it. He wasn't unaware of his crime, and knew it was risky, and yet tried to cover it up. If he had the forethought of the possible crime and ignored it, it was willful. We will just have to disagree on this. I am well aware my opinions will on this will never be law, but if it came up for a vote, heck yeah, I would vote to fry drunk killers butts. (that was edited )

 

[DeletedUser]

I think it's important (but otherwise furthering the tangent) that Hitler didn't do those things. Just because he was in power at the time, and in many cases authorized such, and made it affordable due to his war-mongering/pillaging, he didn't come up with any of that, nor is it appropriate to infer such. Yes, he took credit for such, just as any politician. No, he didn't actually do anything good.

 

[DeletedUser4013]

Just so everyone is aware, this thread closes tomorrow at 23:59 GMT, or as near about that time as I remember to close it.

 

[DeletedUser6029]

*sigh* Way to kill a buzz dude.......wink WHERE IS MY WINK???????? goes off to find her stupid wink.........here wink...wink wink yoohoo wink......

 

[DeletedUser]

Murderers celebrate death.

 

[Lugosi]

I don't think anyone celebrates death as in the general procedure of their life ending and how it happened. Most celebrate deaths as they symbolise something, for instance happy memories from experiences of that persons life or the hope that great things are now possible in the future so yes it is right to celebrate death.

Although, there are some who celebrate deaths for the wrong reasons like nazis who killed the jews, disabled, homosexuals etc. This of course is wrong because it was a deliberate death caused by influence of prejudice and of course deliberate death shouldn't be celebrated positively in this case.

It seems celebrating deaths is okay but the reasons for the celebration are where the faults and opposition lay.