Can the last alliance standing claim victory?

[DeletedUser]

Recently, The Black Sheep have given up the game, leaving Kreger to claim that Strada della Morte have won the war. TBS took more cities in the war, but they have left and SDM are still here, does this mean that SDM have won?

I personally think no, because somebody gave an example in the other thread: CJ were fighting SWAT, and CJ left the game. Even though CJ took more cities, does this mean that SWAT won? Of course not.

Would Kreger claim that SWAT won that war, like he is claiming that SDM won this war.

 

[DeletedUser]

The SWAT beating CJ example is inherently flawed, as SWAT was the most insignificant of all of CJ's enemies. A more valid comparison would be to say that GH, PE, TBS and SWAT could claim victory over CJ because CJ no longer exists. In this case, I would say yeah sure they can. But SDM can almost claim more of a victory over TBS because TBS had only one enemy, not 4+

 

[DeletedUser]

When you talk about claiming a victory you have to look at ground reality before that alliances disbanded or merged. When Cj merge into RDLM, the reason was that they had lots of inactive and they were loosing cities. They realize that they can not survive on their own and it is better for alliance to merge to some alliance. Therefore, I do agree with PE and GH, when they claimed victory.

On the other hand when Kreger is claiming victory over TBS, it sound really pathetic. They might have won more cities in past, but past does not matter. You again have to look at what is going on day before disbanding. TBS were conquering more cities and SDM were loosing. Therefore, claiming victory of TBS just because they disbanded is very similar to SWAT claiming victory on CJ. (Although, did anyone know why TBS suddenly disbanded)

Yogesh

 

[DeletedUser]

When you talk about claiming a victory you have to look at ground reality before that alliances disbanded or merged. When Cj merge into RDLM, the reason was that they had lots of inactive and they were loosing cities. They realize that they can not survive on their own and it is better for alliance to merge to some alliance. Therefore, I do agree with PE and GH, when they claimed victory.

On the other hand when Kreger is claiming victory over TBS, it sound really pathetic. They might have won more cities in past, but past does not matter. You again have to look at what is going on day before disbanding. TBS were conquering more cities and SDM were loosing. Therefore, claiming victory of TBS just because they disbanded is very similar to SWAT claiming victory on CJ. (Although, did anyone know why TBS suddenly disbanded)

Yogesh

Hmm..well put

Yeah, its common knowledge for those who worked with em but, personally, its not for me to share.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think TBS disbanded as they were bored with the game, if you search a few other top TBS players are with Stormcock in the new alliance The Messepians, 6 players, 954 points

 

[DeletedUser]

When you talk about claiming a victory you have to look at ground reality before that alliances disbanded or merged. When Cj merge into RDLM, the reason was that they had lots of inactive and they were loosing cities. They realize that they can not survive on their own and it is better for alliance to merge to some alliance. Therefore, I do agree with PE and GH, when they claimed victory.

On the other hand when Kreger is claiming victory over TBS, it sound really pathetic. They might have won more cities in past, but past does not matter. You again have to look at what is going on day before disbanding. TBS were conquering more cities and SDM were loosing. Therefore, claiming victory of TBS just because they disbanded is very similar to SWAT claiming victory on CJ. (Although, did anyone know why TBS suddenly disbanded)

Yogesh

It is undeniable that TBS have fared quite well against that group of players, no one is attempting to take away from what they've done or what they've accomplished. The problem though is that to achieve that level of success, it seems they were driven to levels of activity that are extremely difficult to maintain over a long period of time. After a while it becomes boring and tiresome, no matter how well you are doing. Sure, they were winning, but to do so they had to be extremely active, and with only 14 players taking on a much larger alliance, and then another one, and then another one... well eventually you wear yourself out.

Someone mentioned it in another thread:

Well done Kreger and Team;

By all accounts you have won; you were at war, TBS are gone; you remain standing so you won.

Caps don't matter; it is who is standing at the end that counts.

This game is all about who can outlast the other...

I'm not arguing that they beat TBS by taking more cities. That'd be crazy. But they did persevere and are now the ones still standing.

 

[DeletedUser]

When you talk about claiming a victory you have to look at ground reality before that alliances disbanded or merged. When Cj merge into RDLM, the reason was that they had lots of inactive and they were loosing cities. They realize that they can not survive on their own and it is better for alliance to merge to some alliance. Therefore, I do agree with PE and GH, when they claimed victory.

first off Yogesh you need to get you information right as that is not at all the reason CJ merged with RDLM but keep thinking what you what even though you are completely wrong

On the other hand when Kreger is claiming victory over TBS, it sound really pathetic. They might have won more cities in past, but past does not matter. You again have to look at what is going on day before disbanding. TBS were conquering more cities and SDM were loosing. Therefore, claiming victory of TBS just because they disbanded is very similar to SWAT claiming victory on CJ. (Although, did anyone know why TBS suddenly disbanded)

second of all on that one if you had bothered to check the grepo stat SDM since being formed had not actually lost a city to TBA at all infact only city lost since we have been formed that could be called a proper loss was one of my cities so on those ground I would say we did win the war with them as we are still here and they are not ! with no cities losses to them !!!

have a look at the stats for yourself

 

[DeletedUser]

The following is a record of all SDM members against TBS and TBSW players (including those who left TBS/W), in brackets are records against TBS academy anarchy Collective

Flymouse: 0-0
David41279: 0-0 (2-0 against AC members, a TBS academy)
Harvid: 0-0 (8-0 against AC, a TBS academy)
Kreger: 14-1
epp360: 0-0 (3-0 against AC, a TBS academy)
dzeta: 0-0
Strongarm55: 0-0
Ron The Great: 0-0 (5-0 against AC)
nails94: 0-2
Twin: 3-3 (1-0 against AC)
-Tiger-: 0-0
Protrus: 0-0
Severis: 0-0
IanCB: 0-0 (4-0 against AC members)
Aksace: 0-0
Komnen:0-0
Dougulis: 0-0 (1-0 against Ragintel since he sided with TBS)
aomsnp: 0-0
Tank M: 3-0 (2-0 against AC)
Yttam: 0-0
Zooshan: 0-0
Alex420: 0-0
Hunna2012: 0-0
Fish Face 1: 0-0
Astroaruna: 0-9
THEBULLY: 2-0 (2-0 against AC)
Phoenix1982: 0-0
Drew2: 0-1
T-Mack: 0-3

total score: 22-18 (25-0 against AC, 1-0 against Ragsintel)

so as can be seen SDM has a winning record against TBS, and its affiliates...therfore can and does claim victory.

 

[DeletedUser6635]

Yes kreger you beat TBS you are the greatest player this game has ever seen we should all bow down to your greatness and kiss the feet of your mighty self, maybe you should do less talking on here and more playing in game as quite frankly all you spout is the same nonsense each time which is both repetitive and dreary.

 

[DeletedUser]

My simple question to flymouse and kreger

Are you conceding defeat to GH and PE because you disbanded? If you are not, than how come you can say here that you won against TBS.

And please do not give me twisted stats. SDM formed couple of days ago. Gamma war are not won in a day. A newly formed alliance can not take a claim for victory by fighting only for less than a week. I did give you that you guys outlasted them. But "Winning the war" you did not.

I am not biased towards any of these alliance. Frankly speaking, I consider myself more closer to RDLM than to other south alliance with whom I have no contact. I did not posted it in that other thread where you are declaring yourself winner. The reason I posted here because someone made a thread to debate it. I am not here to drag in discussion about your "So called great war against TBS".

Yogesh

 

[DeletedUser]

Odd, GrepoStats says otherwise

Can someone screen shot all of SDM's conquests on TBS, please?

Maybe GrepoStats is acting up for me but there's not a single conquer of a TBS city by SDM so please don't cook-the-books...

 

[DeletedUser]

likewise there is no TBS conquer of SDM villages... go through the listed individual members and look at their conquers and losses and you will see the numbers

 

[DeletedUser]

My simple question to flymouse and kreger

Are you conceding defeat to GH and PE because you disbanded? If you are not, than how come you can say here that you won against TBS.

And please do not give me twisted stats. SDM formed couple of days ago. Gamma war are not won in a day. A newly formed alliance can not take a claim for victory by fighting only for less than a week. I did give you that you guys outlasted them. But "Winning the war" you did not.

Yogesh

I believe the point is that you cannot have one without the other. It depends on a person's notion of victory/defeat. The people arguing that GH/PE defeated CJ must also admit that the SDM group of players defeated TBS. And the reverse must also be true: if you argue that inactivity and boredom caused the defeat of CJ, and not PE/GH, then you can claim the same for TBS.

To try and argue that one is valid and the other isn't is simply biased hypocrisy.

 

[DeletedUser]

Hmm, the city that was taken off me i gave away. I didn't want that city and even messaged Ron the Great saying you guys could have it. When he didn't take it, I told rodrag of Titans to take it but Douglis chose that moment to finally send the CS. You could that a conquer?

Next, TBS not taking a city from SDM is bull****. If i remember correctly, you guys only formed 3-4 days ago. And Mr.Paul left your alliance because he was the only SDM in the firing range of us and TBS.

Lastly, as SDM, you have done nothing whatsoever so why don't you stop this propaganda? It is making you look bad.

 

[DeletedUser7213]

Spoiler

I believe the point is that you cannot have one without the other. It depends on a person's notion of victory/defeat. The people arguing that GH/PE defeated CJ must also admit that the SDM group of players defeated TBS. And the reverse must also be true: if you argue that inactivity and boredom caused the defeat of CJ, and not PE/GH, then you can claim the same for TBS.

To try and argue that one is valid and the other isn't is simply biased hypocrisy.

LOL. Hasn't any one here heard of context? Seriously. The demise of CJ and TBS are vastly different. GH/PE were consistently fighting under one banner, with actual force being used against CJ. CJ, being washed up (they were dead, c'mon) and leaderless, opted to merge into RdlM. Naturally, such a vast number of players meant a lot of problems. TBS opted out at a date which was good for them. At the top of their game - I still haven't seen anything to the contrary. Hell, maybe they would have struggled to maintain their greatness, but at least we didn't have to witness them going the way of CJ/LoE.

Don't get me wrong, other factors enter the fray, such as boredom. But generalizing in the way you have is laughable. Simply, you have to look at each case separately. How can an alliance which has existed not even a week make such a claim? LMAO. What a joke? Seriously, if you go by this logic, then Kreger, you were on the losing side twice at the hands of TBS. As a member of LoE, then CJ. So this "victory" of yours would make it 2-1 TBS - Still outclassing you.

Nothing is black and white.

 

[DeletedUser]

A Win???

Reading about "winning and losing", "causing people/alliances to quit", or even having a hand in it makes for interesting reading. I personally have been apart of the CJ move to RDLM and now the SDM alliance, my view is this.....

The merge between CJ and RDLM was due to Bluejay and Hygieia, former rocks of the alliance, having busy lives and realizing like a lot of people, they spent too much time with this game and could not sustain it. Hygieia, took most of the burden initially and it was too much. We moved when we became leaderless and prior to that time we lost cities, true, but I do not believe it was because we lost cities that we made the move. I have no idea how many, but i know there were some. We went to RDLM knowing it was going to be a tough transition and it created a large, powerful alliance, but not necessarily a better one.

The split from RDLM, was based on the difficulties this alliance was faced with. We were both large groups that operated for a long time separately, and now suddenly sprung together. I believe there were expectations each group (CJ and RDLM) had that did not hold.

I did not know storm or jamie and the rest, although I read their posts and read comments about them and posts about them and do not deny their abilities. Personally, I had NO hand in their defeat/quiting/winning/losing or any other word to describe their activities. But, I would say that this game is SO hard to take a side when discussing winning or losing, that cant be refuted.
I do not believe CJ lost, when we went to RDLM, I believe CJ WAS lost, we were present but not focused, had limited direction and needed a void filled. TBS by all accounts kicked ***, gained cities/lost cities had ridiculous stats for ABP, etc. Kreger, and the former LoE gang also gained cities, lost cities, and had good stats, but I do not think they "won" either. They certainly outlasted, but not win. Truth be told, I believe this is an endless game with no winner. Great alliances and great players fight. Once you have more than 40 cities its so hard to get rimmed, the only way you can leave this game is to quit. Quitting does not mean victory for the people you are at war with; quitting means you have your LIFE BACK!!!

 

[DeletedUser]

Truer words have never been spoken in the forums

 

[DeletedUser]

Next, TBS not taking a city from SDM is bull****. If i remember correctly, you guys only formed 3-4 days ago. And Mr.Paul left your alliance because he was the only SDM in the firing range of us and TBS.

Actually Jamie had a village on an island with me, and he and stormcock both had multiple villages within a few hours by CS from me... sorry, but that is NOT a true statement....

As for me stating what I did about the victory, this was done because TBS claimed victory over LOE and CJ... essentially I was passing the note so that the "other" side would see the hypocrasy in their words... if you claim that TBS defeated LOE and CJ, then you have to adhere by those same standards and claim that SDM won against TBS, and that LOE defeated TBSW.

I do not personally agree with that analysis, however I wanted to make a point and this was the perfect opportunity to present that point. Now that everyone has had ample opportunity to discuss this situation... I think it is plainly obvious that no one can claim victory unless they actually rim every player they are opposing... and even then, if the player continues playing, have they truly defeated that player??

Kreger

 

[DeletedUser]

LOL. Hasn't any one here heard of context? Seriously. The demise of CJ and TBS are vastly different. GH/PE were consistently fighting under one banner, with actual force being used against CJ. CJ, being washed up (they were dead, c'mon) and leaderless, opted to merge into RdlM. Naturally, such a vast number of players meant a lot of problems. TBS opted out at a date which was good for them. At the top of their game - I still haven't seen anything to the contrary. Hell, maybe they would have struggled to maintain their greatness, but at least we didn't have to witness them going the way of CJ/LoE.

Don't get me wrong, other factors enter the fray, such as boredom. But generalizing in the way you have is laughable. Simply, you have to look at each case separately. How can an alliance which has existed not even a week make such a claim? LMAO. What a joke? Seriously, if you go by this logic, then Kreger, you were on the losing side twice at the hands of TBS. As a member of LoE, then CJ. So this "victory" of yours would make it 2-1 TBS - Still outclassing you.

Nothing is black and white.

If you claim CJ was dead at the time of the merge into RDLM, the causes would be inactivity, boredom, and lack of leaders. Sure, their enemies may have had a lot to do with that, but are in no way solely responsible. These factors are the only ones that can cause an alliance to "lose" at this point in the game. Players getting bored, losing interest, getting pulled back into their real lives. Whatever it is, it is the real enemy in grepolis, and will destroy more alliances than anything else.

The key to real victory is not in taking more cities, or applying the most pressure, but in outlasting the opposing alliance until they get bored and give up, or reset their accounts. Strategies and conquests are what make the game worth playing, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. If my alliance takes 100 cities from alliance X, but they replenish those cities with ghosts, and then my alliance gets frustrated at a lack of progress and quits... who just won? The alliance with the better stats? Or the alliance that is still playing?

I do not know why TBS quit. I've never fought them, never spoken to them or interacted with them in any way. Although we happened to be on opposing sides in the conflict (simply by chance, as they are half a world away from me), I have a lot of respect for them. But the fact remains that they did call it quits, and TBS does not exist anymore.

 

[DeletedUser5398]

spot on Dave,

PE/GH might declare victory over CJ, but that would be over the alliance itself not the players. those of you who play on in different alliances but still fight us should not ever be considered defeated.

RL catches up to lots of us, some sooner than others. without there being a foreseeable upgrade to 2.0 in this world only those with time will win this game.

VB

-side note, do we really need 7 threads to discuss this?